Curse

Rapture · Feb 01, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

even starcraft has its problems. take bisu as an example: people [flash, july, luxury...] are afraid of his late game so they go all in cheese at the start and hope to get lucky with scouting/build order. make no mistake, broodwar is no stranger to buildwars.

but anyway;

guildwars as an esport has the problem that it is controlled by the developer rather than the community. other games played at such a level have the pub crap filtered out for competitive play. superweapons, double damage, etc. this begs the question, why are anet/izzy so keen to keep gvg essentially inline with griffon farming?

skill changes can no longer go far enough. anet need to give in and make gvg a custom format that does not have to conform to pve standards.

Riotgear · Feb 01, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapture

guildwars as an esport has the problem that it is controlled by the developer rather than the community. other games played at such a level have the pub crap filtered out for competitive play. superweapons, double damage, etc. this begs the question, why are anet/izzy so keen to keep gvg essentially inline with griffon farming?

VoD = Superweapon. :P

Quote:

anet need to give in and make gvg a custom format that does not have to conform to pve standards.

More like they need to start making skill updates that make sense. The "WTF!?" factor on skill updates has been at an all-time high ever since the Factions release, and Izzy seriously needs to share some of what he's smoking (but preferably stop smoking it on the job).

Elrodien · Feb 01, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

How to make Sins less broken:

*remove combos - give them conditional dagger attacks that reward skillful play eg if target is moving do +x damage or condition.

*give them utility skills - some skills that could buff someone elses attack/defence

The rit was designed to be an alternative healer to the monk. I think the rits restoration line could be buffed so that it might actually be able to compete. Some hex removal skills would be nice if they were going to do this.

Just a few ideas....

BlackSephir · Feb 01, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

So in order to fix sins, what I’m hearing seems to be a combination of the following:
-Nerf spike damage
-Buff pressure/autoattack dps/utility
-Increase survivability so that the pressure can take effect

In other words and I like it: make 'em meele rangers- interrupts, snares, conitions etc.

JR · Feb 01, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

<3 for JR, great read. I suppose, my only question in here, and it may seem intuitively obvious, is this:

What would you, being one of the best remaining players out there, suggest for said overhauls?

I have problems completely with Assassins as a whole, and really don't understand at all how they could work. Ritualists I can see being overhauled in a suitable way, but Assassins seem beyond hope.

Ritualists are a complicated one. Their flaw is mostly the reliance on spirits, so you have two options: Remove the spirits, or make the interesting.

I would like to see Spirits being mobile, perhaps with simmilar AI to pets. For the sake of arguement lets say you could summon up to 5 at a time. You could have offensive spirits which could have unique direct/AoE effects that triggered as they attacked. AoE damage per swing, AoE DoT effect... who knows. You could also possibly have defensive spirits that would act in a simmilar way to Wards, but wouldn't cripple your mobility.

Assassins should have a variety of defensive stances that give them the durability to hold up in the front line (simmilar to a Ranger). Shadow stepping should be become short duration high increase run stances (think a Dash that lasts 3 seconds but scales up to 75%). Combo damage should be toned down, and base weapon damage raised. That would be a good start.

How's that for theorycrafting?

wuzzman · Feb 01, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

How to make Sins less broken:

*remove combos - give them conditional dagger attacks that reward skillful play eg if target is moving do +x damage or condition.

*give them utility skills - some skills that could buff someone elses attack/defence

The rit was designed to be an alternative healer to the monk. I think the rits restoration line could be buffed so that it might actually be able to compete. Some hex removal skills would be nice if they were going to do this.

Just a few ideas....

so big solution to sins...make them shitty warriors.

DreamWind · Feb 01, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

If I were to consider whether a handfull of PVP players know more about the game and its overall balance than the team of game industry developers who thought of it in the first place and coded a ton of skills that have synergies among themselves that we probably are yet to discover as players... I still think Anet has the upper hand.

I don't, and I am strictly going by the years of evidence since the game has been released. Many people who post here play far more PvP than anybody at Anet...and as far as I know, nobody at Anet has high level PvP experience. Whether or not they created the game is irrelevent. There is a reason Wizards of the Coast hires professional players for their Magic design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

In the end the responsibility for the game is that of Anet and that's why they take decisions. Good or bad, they're their decisions and they assume responsibility for them and the game industry as a whole will prove if their game is a success or not and if their decisions were good or bad.

Their decisions were clearly more bad than good when it comes to PvP. Anybody who has played the game this entire time can see that. The problem is that the PvE side will gather praise while the PvP side dying (the side that could have been legendary) will not be discussed. That is the biggest disappointment of all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapture

even starcraft has its problems. take bisu as an example: people [flash, july, luxury...] are afraid of his late game so they go all in cheese at the start and hope to get lucky with scouting/build order. make no mistake, broodwar is no stranger to buildwars.

Thats not buildwars. Thats simply adapting to your opponent and adjusting your strategy accordingly. All the great players do it. Thats why a single player isn't able to stay on top forever, because people expose their weaknesses based on play styles. It isn't stick in skill X and you win the game.

Not to mention that players go in streaks in terms of how well they are playing. Thats what I would like to see in Guild Wars again...the players currently playing the best winning instead of the build currently working the best winning.

wuzzman · Feb 01, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

[skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill]

preprotting yes, protting no.

Jaigoda · Feb 01, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I'd agree with Elrodien. The combo system is what's bringing Assassin's down. Just think about it. If you didn't have chains, you wouldn't have nearly as many 1234567 builds. Also, I think that shadow-steps could have a half-range prefix, and with a few (small) buffs to help out the attack skills. This would create much more diverse and potentially more difficult-to-play builds, and it would take away much of the Assassin's fragility (interupt an attack skill? okay, let's hit our next one and keep spiking) Also, I think that we should try to stray from spiking, which in itself was what was abusing the shadow-steps and spike-chains. IMO, shadow-steps were designed to try to promote the idea of passing through the frontline and into the more squishy characters, rather than giving you a lead-in for your spike. It eliminates all that time from here to there, when the whole front/midline can pick you off. So basically, it's for more defensive means rather than offensive. It sort of fulfills the role of a warrior that can efficiently penetrate the offensive line and attack the core.

I think that one of the big problems is the strength of the dual attacks. The heart of the instagib problem is the amount of damage one dual attack can do. Hell, Twisting Fangs, including DW, does about 150 damage, and it's not even elite! Yes, it does take a pre-skill to use it, but Evis also needs two skills, and it takes a while to load up adren, and you're losing your elite as well. While it's probably a bad comparison (are those flames in the distance?), it at least somewhat shows how overpowered the assassin's dual attacks can be.

We need to find a middle ground between too much damage and not much damage. I think we should drop the +100-damage dual attacks, and then raise the dagger damage a bit, enough that with skills, you can get a good 70-100 DPS if unhindered. Maybe make the dagger attack damage somewhere around sword or axe range. This'll also help with raising their autoattack damage.

What I'm suggesting for attack skills, is this. All chain requirements are gone. What used to be dual attacks become off-hand attacks. The normal attacks are stronger than the off-hands, but the normal attacks make the off-hand attacks stronger or faster or have certain effects, such as unblockability, enchant removal, etc. This way, you get something like:

"Wild Strike 5e - 4r: Dagger Attack. You deal +5..45..55 damage and your next off-hand attack activates twice as fast and removes 1 stance from target foe."

Then you could follow up with:

"Twisting Fangs 10e - 8r: Off-hand attack. You deal no damage but you inflict Deep Wound for 3..8..10 seconds. You cannot attack for 5..2..2 seconds (to prevent abuse of using an attack directly after DW, triggering it, AKA no spike; most off-hands won't have this)."

Then there's Melee Attacks, which are more immediate (the effects occur when the attack hits), but interact in no way with other skills, and often cause later detrimental effects.

"Death Blossom 5e - 2r: Melee Attack. You deal +10..34..55 damage to target foe. If you are not enchanted, you also hit all adjacent foes."

So, you could have a 4-attack bar with, say, Death Blossom, Wild Strike, another 4s recharging skill, and Twisting Fangs. You've got a short assist-spike (Wild Strike or the other skill, then TF), and nice pressure (WS-DB-4r attack-DB-WS, etc.). Basically, you can create chains for more effectiveness, but you don't actually have to, and the chains themselves don't do more than, say, 70-80 damage per skill at the most. But the nice part is that you can CHANGE TARGETS, rather than stick to the monk like glue until someone peels you off. If this is put into effect (which to be frank, I doubt it will be), A-Net will have to carefully create every single skill so that no combination is overpowered. But the important thing is, if they DO make an overpowered combo, instead of nerfing it into oblivion, they just just balance it. That's why I think 'Sins are so broken and inflexible, because they overnerfed and overbuffed skills, which caused a huge imbalance in the class.

As for utility, I think that would make the Assassin overpowered. What I'm hoping for is similar to the curren't 'Sin, but less spike and more pressure. Their advantage over warriors is to be able to safely get in and out of combat (another thing, we need more defensive skills), and do more damage without having to build up adren. But their disadvantage is that they're fairly inflexible (though still more flexible than now, since you can switch targets and keep going if you get interupted), and they don't have utility. IMO, it balances out, and it'll at least help 'Sins get play somewhat.

EDIT:
When I started this, Elrodien was the last poster in the thread - sorry for posting late.

ensoriki · Feb 01, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

I'd agree with Elrodien. The combo system is what's bringing Assassin's down. Just think about it. If you didn't have chains, you wouldn't have nearly as many 1234567 builds.

You could destroy the Chain forever, and it wouldn't solve your 1234567 problem.
Some assassins may use skills out of order but some things to consider
1) Damage is done, people are used to the chain and will likely feel comfortable and use it that way anyways.
2)Assassins can go L-O-D which is only 3 skills which means they would go 123, and then have 456 and 7 (possibly 8) they could use out of sequence.
Consider why gamers don't go L-O-D, and then have 4 utility skills that are usable at will.

Quote:

Also, I think that shadow-steps could have a half-range prefix, and with a few (small) buffs to help out the attack skills. This would create much more diverse and potentially more difficult-to-play builds, and it would take away much of the Assassin's fragility (interupt an attack skill? okay, let's hit our next one and keep spiking)

Skills out of an attack chain turns a sin into a Dervish with daggers,
except even more fragile. Things following a chain of command are fine, what can screw things up is when they don't have to. If you look at the Old BOA SP sin, it didn't have to follow the full chain of command and instead skipped the lead function, allowing for quickly executed spikes.
I disagree with the half-range thing. It be quite a shame if AoD turned half-range.

Quote:

I think that one of the big problems is the strength of the dual attacks. The heart of the instagib problem is the amount of damage one dual attack can do. Hell, Twisting Fangs, including DW, does about 150 damage, and it's not even elite! Yes, it does take a pre-skill to use it, but Evis also needs two skills, and it takes a while to load up adren, and you're losing your elite as well. While it's probably a bad comparison (are those flames in the distance?), it at least somewhat shows how overpowered the assassin's dual attacks can be.

Are you complaining about twisting fangs? Wasn't it already discussed at the beginning of factions and all the way until nightfalls release?
TF is fine, a better idea of what Duals can be problems is more so Blades of Steel,
BOS also supports the idea of long attack chains and long recharges for sins, you could say it halts progress of the class.

Quote:

We need to find a middle ground between too much damage and not much damage. I think we should drop the +100-damage dual attacks, and then raise the dagger damage a bit, enough that with skills, you can get a good 70-100 DPS if unhindered. Maybe make the dagger attack damage somewhere around sword or axe range. This'll also help with raising their autoattack damage.

Your trying to turn assassins into Warriors now. Dagger damage doesn't need to increase, it would only cause much more unnecessary hassles, and hurdles.
It's to much work, and it's unneeded.

Quote:

"Twisting Fangs 10e - 8r: Off-hand attack. You deal no damage but you inflict Deep Wound for 3..8..10 seconds. You cannot attack for 5..2..2 seconds (to prevent abuse of using an attack directly after DW, triggering it, AKA no spike; most off-hands won't have this)."

TF does not need any nerfs.

Quote:

As for utility, I think that would make the Assassin overpowered. What I'm hoping for is similar to the curren't 'Sin, but less spike and more pressure. Their advantage over warriors is to be able to safely get in and out of combat (another thing, we need more defensive skills), and do more damage without having to build up adren. But their disadvantage is that they're fairly inflexible (though still more flexible than now, since you can switch targets and keep going if you get interupted), and they don't have utility. IMO, it balances out, and it'll at least help 'Sins get play somewhat.

Exactly your problem, you don't want sin's to have utility.
that turns them into a warrior with daggers for one, and is also 1 of the current assassin's problems.

BlackSephir · Feb 01, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

As for utility, I think that would make the Assassin overpowered.

No, giving them utility and taking away their omgspikez abilities will make them playable again and not overpowered.
Though I AM concerned about AN taking away their spike abilities... they failed a lot in it.

ensoriki · Feb 01, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I would like to see Spirits being mobile, perhaps with simmilar AI to pets. For the sake of arguement lets say you could summon up to 5 at a time. You could have offensive spirits which could have unique direct/AoE effects that triggered as they attacked. AoE damage per swing, AoE DoT effect... who knows. You could also possibly have defensive spirits that would act in a simmilar way to Wards, but wouldn't cripple your mobility.

Heard it before, but ya it sounds cool
but when you mean mobile, does it stay something like within nearby range of the ritualist? Or can move further away from a ritualist like a actual pet?

Quote:

Assassins should have a variety of defensive stances that give them the durability to hold up in the front line (simmilar to a Ranger). Shadow stepping should be become short duration high increase run stances (think a Dash that lasts 3 seconds but scales up to 75%). Combo damage should be toned down, and base weapon damage raised. That would be a good start.

Really REally really really really, really really really disagree with adding Base weapon damage...really...really..really do.

Disagree with shadow stepping suggestion too but....not as much as increasing base weapon damage.

Riotgear · Feb 01, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

The same suggestion keeps repeating, for good reason:

If they really want to keep the lame combo system, make sequenced attack skills have an effect, and an additional effect if used in sequence.

Winstar · Feb 01, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

It doesn't seem to me to be impossible to get rid of the new classes for a period of time. A while back there was the nightfall/core tournament. On an episode of WoC Izzy stated that once the tournament system had been in place for a while that it would be possible to run different kinds of tournaments, i.e. limited format tournaments. Why not run a retro season where ATs are proph only. Of course there are years of tweaking to proph skills that a proph only environment might not be quite as it should be.

At least it doesn't seem impossible to me to axe the expansion classes while not really removing from the game.

ensoriki · Feb 01, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

make sequenced attack skills have an effect, and an additional effect if used in sequence.

then people will go 123456 to get all the effects.

it's like saying
"okay you don't have to count to 10 going 1234578910 now" "yay"
"but you only get money when you do"
Might as well just count to 10 instead of going 1532467810

If that doesnt make sense

Lets say a warrior has Sever artery and Gash on his bar.
and his opponent is not bleeding.
He can use gash before Sever artery, by why should he do that?

Zuranthium · Feb 01, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I don't believe mobile spirits really fit.

I think MUCH faster cast times and recharge times would work, though. Plus, changes to the cost and/or actual effect of many spirits.

Life, for example, could easily be an excellent skill. Change the cast time to 1 second and change the health gain to a set amount, so the spirit could readily be used in combination with an ability like Reclaim Essence.

Item spells need to be changed so that they don't take away your equipment or remove your ability to weapon swap. The Spawning Power attribute should affect them as well...something like costing 3% less energy to cast per rank.

~Z

ensoriki · Feb 02, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Item spells need to be changed so that they don't take away your equipment or remove your ability to weapon swap. The Spawning Power attribute should affect them as well...something like costing 3% less energy to cast per rank.

~Z

Because it works like that is the reason I think [skill]Empowerment[/skill] exists

Zuranthium · Feb 02, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

That skill is dumb and should be changed.

~Z

JR · Feb 02, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Heard it before, but ya it sounds cool
but when you mean mobile, does it stay something like within nearby range of the ritualist? Or can move further away from a ritualist like a actual pet?

Really REally really really really, really really really disagree with adding Base weapon damage...really...really..really do.

Disagree with shadow stepping suggestion too but....not as much as increasing base weapon damage.

Care to say why?

erk · Feb 02, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Spirits being stationary is the trade off for effectively being extra team members. Assassin forced to use breakable combo chains is the trade off for the massive damage they can produce with them.

I would still like to see a nerf to the A/Mo Sincaster build, I don't think that's in the true spirit of the Melee sin. Dancing daggers should be nerfed out of common usage.